I was never a fan of President Ronald Reagan and can proudly say that I never voted for him. But he did possess an ability during his time in office for communicating a hopeful tone to the American people. They used to call him “The Great Communicator.”
One of his most famous rhetorical flourishes focused around his belief that when he thought about America, he felt that it was that “shining city upon a hill.” Reagan borrowed the analogous quote from John Winthrop, the first governor of Massachusetts, who upon setting sail for New England in 1630, reflected on his hopes for what would come to signify American exceptionalism; that we would be the moral compass and example for the rest of the world.
Let’s say that these days, that “shining city” is beginning to look more like an abandoned town, with rubble and burned out facades dotting the landscape. The precipitous fall from grace is breathtaking in scope.
Out of all the madness, however, the American spirit of protest and making our voices heard is alive and well. We can at least hold our heads high when it comes to that aspect of our troubled democracy. The people are pissed, and rightfully so. We’ve seen enough of the extinguishing of our black brothers and sisters on the United States streets and simple lip service that things must change is not enough.
Of course, we must change the culture of our policing in America. We’ve known this for quite some time now. There are many ideas on how to do this, and some are quite striking in their scope. When the city council of Minneapolis votes to disband, dismantle, and start from scratch their entire police department, perhaps we have reached a tipping point.
But going forward, this is not going to be easy. We should brace ourselves for more chaos, division, and uncertainty. Because if there’s one thing that separates this country from most civilized Western democracies, it’s America’s obsession with guns, and in turn, the violent nature of our society in general. If we ignore that signature point, we do so at our own peril.
Wouldn’t it be nice to be able to disarm police departments throughout the country? Oh, of course, we’d have to have an armed segment for extreme situations. Still, in a perfect world, our police would be part of the community, there to assure we’re adhering to the laws of the land, but who’s first inclination is to de-escalate the situation, not inflame it.
This concept is not crazy talk, at least if we look to some of the other countries around the world who have nowhere near the number of people, especially those of color, who perish at the result of police misconduct. We’re the cream of the crop when it comes to that dubious distinction.
There are reasons for this, not the least of which is our violent culture and history of deep racial mistrust and animosity between the police and the African-American community. Other countries that do a better job of policing do not have this kind of history. Many, such as Japan and some of the Nordic countries, are more homogenous. There’s not the diversity and cultural differences in those countries that we experience in America.
But, when it comes to policing in general, it’s way past time to start looking at how our friends overseas are doing the job, and ask ourselves why we can’t do it here?
When it comes to training, we do not measure up compared to other countries. For instance, in Germany, police recruits are required to spend two and a half to four years in basic training to become an officer, with the option to pursue the equivalent of a bachelor’s or master’s degree in policing. In America? On average, it can take as little as 33 weeks when you combine field and classic training.
The problem with that is that if you’re only spending roughly 21 weeks in classroom training, you don’t have enough time to master the concepts of crisis intervention or de-escalation techniques. According to Paul Hirschfield, associate sociology and criminal-justice professor at Rutgers University, “If you only have 21 weeks, naturally you’re going to emphasize survival.”
There’s much more restraint exercised when it comes to policing in most European countries. It’s the norm, not the exception. For example, some countries, such as Finland and Norway, even require police to seek permission before shooting anyone. In Spain, police have to provide verbal cautions and warning shots before resorting to lethal force.
And let’s face it, in most European countries, the police are regarded in society along the same lines as a doctor, lawyer, or teacher. They’re also paid better and trained longer than their American counterparts.
The numbers do not lie. Police killings in America dwarf those occurring in other civilized societies across the globe. For example, to put it in perspective, between 2002 and 2017, adjusting for each countries average population, there were 71 police killings per million people in the U.S.; 3.2 per million people in Iceland; 1.5 per million people in Finland, and 0.8 police killings per million people in Norway (Snopes). Similarly, there were 36 police killings in all of Canada in 2017; 14 in Germany; and in England and Wales, 3 in 2018.
Yes, the examples above are from mostly white countries. And yes, most have generous social safety net policies who’s populations consistently rank near the top in overall happiness and contentment in global polling year after year.
But let’s get real here, folks. While the racial disparity and cultural differences set us apart from many of our European and Asian friends around the world, there’s one thing that stands out above all others: our love of guns. That’s right, we Americans own more guns than anybody in the world. The latest estimates put the overall civilian gun cache around the world at roughly 857 million. How many of those do Americans own? 46%, which comes out to about 393 million, according to the Switzerland-based Small Arms Survey (SAS).
It’s the guns, stupid.
How can we expect de-escalation from our police departments when there are so many firearms floating around on the streets of America? Is it any wonder many of these departments are more than happy to accept hyper-militarized machinery from the federal government via grants and other programs? How can you police the streets and practice de-escalation when the starting point for everything is that the civilians have as much, if not more firepower than you?
Until we as Americans come to grips with this phenomenon, I don’t see how we can ever move forward. The Second Amendment folks will never allow gun confiscation. They’ll yell, scream, and be the squeaky wheel that continues to hold one of our political parties hostage. Hell, we can’t even get a universal background check bill passed. Over 80% of Americans want such a measure. So much for representational democracy, I suppose.
I’m hopeful, yet deeply skeptical that things are going to change as quickly as we want. The problems within so many of our police departments are so deep and systemic; it’s going to take sustained pressure by millions of people in the streets to get the change we so desperately need. Maybe we’re up to the task, perhaps not.
But the glorification of firearms in this country is what sets us apart from others around the world. They must look at us and wonder what the hell is going on. Can we ever have a police force like they do in the U.K. where bobbies still patrol the streets, absent guns on their hips?
Indeed not when hundreds of small men in fake military gear can march to governor’s mansions with assault weapons proudly displayed for all to see. Not when this is seen as acceptable behavior by a sizable portion of our population. And certainly not when that behavior gets celebrated by a particular television network and other false patriots.
In theory, the solution is simple: remove or severely reduce civilian gun ownership; de-militarize, disarm and retrain our police to de-escalate first – and use force as a last resort.
In practice, however, this is America. We love our firearms way too much.
It’s the guns, stupid. It’s always about the guns.
ALWAYS! ALWAYS! Even though we’ve had all this turmoil in the Twin Cities, there isn’t a day go by where people are shot and killed. And none of thse have anything to do with protests or police brutality. And they all involve hand guns, not assault weapons.
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Yep, and I just don’t see how we can become a better and less violent society without big-time gun safety regulations. I know I’m preaching to the choir, but I really believe it.
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So do I
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Brookingslib, I am for gun safety. What I am not in favor of is politicians utilizing tragedies related to guns to push a gun control narrative.
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Well said, Jeff! It is high time that the people started protesting about gun control. It is abundantly clear that elected politicians are not listening to the 80% that want greater gun control. If you wish to reduce gun violence as well as racial strife, the electorate must get out and vote for the candidates who will get these things done. I guess the basic question for America is, “Do you want to preserve your democracy and freedoms?” Considering the scandalously poor voter turnout in most of our democratic elections, I fear the answer is that people don’t care. Election turnouts going forward will tell the tale.
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So true John. I’m hoping the apathy is replaced with activism this time around. The only way we’ll get anything done at all is if Dems can win back all three levers of power. I see no other way. The R’s are only about power. Nothing else. This election is so important. Maybe police reform, this time around, gets done. Still, based on the past, it’s hard to be optimistic.
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Hi John, it’s not so much that ppl don’t care, more like too many are losing hope that whoever we put in the white house makes no difference, nothing fundamentally changes which frustrates majority of voters. So next election comes around and many will boycott or vote 3rd party. I anticipate 50% or less even bother to vote, esp during a pandemic.
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Reblogged this on Filosofa's Word and commented:
I did not intend to post a fourth post tonight, but … on reading Jeff’s post, I felt I had to. His words speak for themselves, and for the record, I am in 100% agreement with every word. We are the creators of our own doom … the love of guns in this country is greater than the love of life. Thank you, Jeff … great post!
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Thank you Jill! Yes, the United States of America…land of the free, home of the brave, and as many freaking guns as you’d like! I’m so disgusted. You mention one word to most of these folks about even a semi ban on assault weapons and they go nuts. I remember Beto O’Rourke got killed for mentioning gun confiscation or gun buybacks. You know what? I’m all for it. I know it won’t happen….but damn it Jill. What the hell is wrong with us?
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I know … guns and bigotry are the two biggest problems this nation has or has ever had. And, it seems that both are here to stay, at least for the foreseeable future. Sigh. I dunno what is wrong with us, Jeff … I think the human species is flawed and is largely determined to either bring about its own extinction, else destroy the entire world. Why else would we have nuclear weapons and throw away billions of dollars on space exploration? Sigh.
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A question far bigger than you an I are capable of answering Jill!
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Brookingslib, if you don’t feel comfortable with the idea of owning a gun, then don’t buy one. Jill Dennison, if you require a history lesson, look at the Columbine shooting. Gun-free zone. Aurora, Colorado movie theater shooting. Gun-free zone.
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So I have a question for you friend. Why don’t we start treating guns like we do automobiles? Registration, liability insurance, mandatory gun safety class before you can purchase, etc.. Is that something you could support?
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Brookingslib, universal background checks, criminal and mental health background checks, prohibition of firearms sales to minors are regulations I can support. Other than that,everything else should be scrapped.
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Oh well. We disagree. I support all of yours, plus all of the ones I just asked you about. Sadly, none of the regulations you or I support will happen because we have one party beholden to the gun lobby and other radical right causes. It’s a tragedy what’s become of this country. Like I’ve said to you before, we are a laughingstock to the rest of the civilized world when it comes to gun violence. It’s too bad you treasure your rights to own as many guns as you want over what’s best for society as a whole.
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Brookingslib, open vs. conceal carry permits are b.s. regulations.
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Next time I go to a public place, be it a restaurant or grocery store etc..and I see someone with an open-carry gun, I will leave immediately and demand to speak with management. Sorry, I also have a right NOT to be mowed down by a lunatic. I have no way of knowing whether that person is or is not one. While you seem intent on America being just like the old west, where everyone is packing, I reject that premise. That’s not the America I want to live in, and will do everything I can to speak out against it.
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Brookingslib, that is your decision. However, that does not give you or anybody else the right to put one’s right to self-defense up for a vote.
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One’s “right to self-defense” does NOT mean individuals need to own (and open-carry, which they are allowed to do in some states) AR-15s and other military-style weapons.
-IF- a person were to take your proposal related to individuals needing “self-defense” seriously, there is NO NEED for any one individual to have more than ONE gun in their possession to protect themselves and/or their family.
However, because of the “second amendment” malarkey, every Tom, Dick, or Harry has the “right” to possess guns, not for personal defense, but rather to kill scores of innocent people. (And in many cases, to compensate for physical inadequacies.)
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Nan, as the bumper sticker says, “I’ll keep my freedom my money and my guns.You can keep the change.”
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I didn’t say anything about self-defense. Public places aren’t the place for people to be packing. In my opinion.
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Brookingslib, you make a good point.
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Jill Dennison, basic common sense would dictate to me that looking down the barrel of a gun should in and of itself be a deterrent to the desire of one person to harm another. Brookingslib, you are perfectly free to live in a gun-free zone. Try a country that has government owning all of the guns and being able to lord over all of the people.
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My personal feeling, bomb every weapon manufacturing plant in North America, including all munitions plants. And if they try to rebuild them, bomb them again and again and again till they give up. I know, there are billions of weapons already out there, but you have to start somewhere. Guns are almost useless if they don’t have bullets, and bullets are pretty useless with guns to fire them. You want to make change, you’ll never do it by negotiation. It is time to use force to destroy force.
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I’m only talking guns here, nothing else–yet!
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lol, i know ur being ironic… blow up all the guns but the mindset and laws remain intact, citizens will simply buy bombs or any other weapon in the black market. Ppl who feel they need guns, why? b/c of fear, unless consciousness level rise, nothing fundamentally will change.
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Well rawgod, I get your point. Desperate times call for desperate measures, as they say. I don’t think your solution will ever come to fruition, but I do get the urgency in your proposed action. In this country, however, things move at a snails pace, especially when you have a powerful lobbying group like the NRA and the weapons manufacturers showering politicians with cash and threats. I wish I could snap my fingers and make this crap all go away. Ughhhhh….Life in America
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I don’t think that will ever happen, no one has the guts anymore. But what could be equally as effective and doable? That is the question, and I have no answer for…
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Rawgod, maybe you would feel comfortable being subjugated to the whims of pre-American Revolution English Parliament. That is basically your logic.
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Being Canadian, I have no idea to what you refer. If you are talking about the stupidity of the English government’s response to the colonies, remember, Canada was a British Colony too. We did not have to fight to gain our independence. We bided our time, and we took it peacefully. The American response I think was foolhardy. You could as easily have lost your Revolution, and where would you be today? Guns are death machines. This is the 21st Century. Get with the program.
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Rawgod, maybe you should reread history of Columbine, the Aurora. Colorado movie theater shooting. Gun-free zones, however, no gun wielding criminal would abide by such a law. Apply some common sense here.
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There is no common sense when it comes to guns. Most of the world gets along without guns in the hands of their citizens. The US has probably more gun deaths than the rest of the world put together. You want to have guns in your country, go ahead. I will not cry when someone shoots you, or somebody you love.
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Rawgod, think whatever you want.
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He will — without any prodding from you. He’s one of the most independent persons I’ve come across in a long, long time.
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Nan, you are free to do the same.
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I do, as do you. My goal was merely to point out that not everyone thinks like you, in case your readership should take your thoughts as unopposed.
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Rawgod, here are my general thoughts on the gun issue: I would prefer that there be no gun violence at all. Having said that, I think the root of the problem is lack of proper training and education as to how guns should best be used. Example: Someone is doing target shooting on Coca-Cola cans, to pick a certain item for the purpose of target practice. However, the main purpose for the gun is related to home defense and/or hunting. Should that person be left in peace to do as he or she pleases as long as no harm comes to other people in the process?
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Anticipating problems is known to cause them. Make life equitable for everyone and there will be no need to defend your home. Meanwhile, there is enough food at the grocery store for everyone. There is no longer any need to hunt, or fish.
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Rawgod, I don’t mean to seem naive, however, I thought that the best way to prevent problems is by trying to anticipate all variables.
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anticipate all variables — That sure sounds like living in fear to me.
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Nan, living in fear would be looking over your shoulder everyday under the assumption that the world is out to get you.
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You cannot anticipate all variables no matter how hard you try. Accidents happen. Other people plan things that affect the you negatively, or positively. You can go bankrupt through no action of your own, or you can get lucky and win a lottery.
I give you kudos for wanting to try, but in the end it is all useless. You are going to die, so just hope you go peacefully.
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Rawgod, you make good points.
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I’ve had seventy years to think about it. This is where those years got me. Thank you.
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Rawgod, I have been enjoying your blog. My compliments on your very well articulated thoughts.
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Again, thank you. I hope you are leaving comments. That is where I think the rubber hits the road. I love to have conversations, as if you have not noticed.
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Rawgod, on a separate matter, I do invite you to look at my blog I know that some people cannot stomach the hardcore spicy foods, however, I do invite you to read my blog and leave meany feedback or suggestions for items that you would like to see me review. Start with the introductory post and move on from there.
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I took a look already, but the food blogs hold no interest for me. My body goes into convulsions if I accidentally consume a number of spices, so my diet is very bland.
As far as how you want me to read your blog, it is how I would prefer others to approach my blog, from the beginning, but few do, lol.
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Rawgod, the reason for the suggestion about the opening post being read first is so ideas can be dropped there. If there is anything that you can think of that you would like to see me review, please feel free to share them.
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Okie Dokie.
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Rawgod, I know that some people may not like spicy foods because that may not taste good to them. I know that some people may have digestive disorders that make spicy foods hard to tolerate. You do have my permission to share any of the stuff on my blog with family and friends. My blog is solely moderated, however, I am happy to converse and discuss in-depth the items I blog about.
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Soon.
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Rawgod, my blog is solely and heavily moderated. I will not delete comments that are just stating a difference of opinion regarding a hot sauce or pepper that I review. My blog is family-friendly and I will want to keep it that way. Comments that are clean will be approved. Those that are not will be deleted.
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Each to his own. I’m busy till at leat the middle of next week maybe the weekend. When time allows, I will be exploring.
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Rawgod, you may read my blog at your convenience. I will be delighted to discuss what I blog about in great detail.
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I apologise if I have written this on your blog before, trotted out so many times but feel it is conceivable and bears repeating.
Starting with The Gun Issue and expanding.
Firstly, the USA is still a new nation. Look at Europe…1700s…that’s nothing! Historically the mix is still cooking.
Secondly the USA was founded on a basic premise that a large central government was to be distrusted and it would be up to the individual or a community to work things out on a day to day basis. Hence the firearms, in the 1700s in a new nation, something advisable to have. As is the case with all cultures once an ideas are stuck in the collective head they can be fearfully difficult to shift from the whole nation. I would cite you examples but I would only start fearful arguments with some whose ancestors came from those nations (See what I mean?)
Anyway, back to the USA put those two aspects together and you have a large segment of the population who see their gun as a symbol of their independence. Now taking the Nuclear Weapon analogy, that means…’Hmm, is my little handgun going to be any use if someone (Possibly of another race-but they never said it) invades my home with a semi-automatic?….I better get one’ and so on. Also there will be a mindset that if Socialists take over Washington you had better be ready to defend yourself- now you know there are plenty out there who subscribe that wacky-doodle view
Thus the guns don’t go away…
So looking at the problem from a many faceted viewpoint. The guns are symptomatic of many fractures within the USA. And there divides are growing (Not helped by not having a president only an occupant in The Whitehouse). History suggests that this will lead separation of states from the centre as folk seek out their own solutions. The last time this nearly happened it was along the North South divide, this time it could be more fractured (look at a political map) with even cities becoming independent. Hopefully if this scenario takes place it will be through a quasi-legal set up and no marching armies, although be prepared for Ulster like situations. Then you’ll have a sort of set-up similar to The Holy Roman Empire, with the president and Washington being very nominal as each region goes its own way. Thus will some areas will have very strong gun control laws as one outcome.
This disintegration is quite normal in History.
The only really big issue in the case of this happening to the USA ….Those nuclear weapons
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Roger, you understand the U.S. better than most over here. I too wonder what will become of our ‘never perfect’ union. The coastal states out West are already forming compacts on various issues like climate change, going completely around D.C. I can see your scenario playing out some day. The fracturing of our nation continues unabated. Social media, and opinion media on television is furthering this fracture. And now we have a president who thrives on this division. Gee, what could possibly go wrong?
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It’s sad to watch it happening.
When I was growing up (born in 1951), I thrived on US culture- Cartoon Shows, Sit-coms, comic books, MAD magazine (as good as any text book), later music (mostly West Coast 1960s). These led me into deeper interests of history in general, politics, cultures and so forth. My speech idioms are peppered with a hodge-podge of sayings from around differing parts.
As much as one could say in the broad use of the term I ‘loved’ America and although Left-wing (real european hard left-wing) got into several arguments with fellow-travellers over America not being the source of all evils.
These past years though, as The Right was shaken by ‘one of those people’ getting into the Whitehouse I have witnessed the rise and growth in boldness of the ugly side (which lurks in all nations and peoples).
This has culminated in their wiliness to install an incompetent in the Whitehouse, solely because he is everything the Liberal and Democrats are horrified by, because he is their creature and they can tug his strings and yank his chain and he will dance and sing for them.
It’s no longer the USA(for all its own share of faults and failures) I grew so fond of. It has become fractured.
Once in a set of circumstances I could have found place (Maybe New England way) and settled there. Not anymore. Not while this madness is rampant.
So much potential, so much hope being caste aside and trampled on for a handful of vanities, fears and sinful hatreds.
I wish you guys well, I wish you a safe passage out of this and above all I wish I will be proven quite, quite wrong.
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I like to remind some of my readers, Roger, that the world no longer looks to us for leadership. That we’ve lost our ability to shape world opinion, let alone peace. I’ve been told that we were never looked upon with such admiration anyway. But I think your view represents how things really are across the pond. We have been looked to for leadership, and to a certain extent, still are. Now, however, it’s simply vanished into thin air. It will take years my friend, to rectify what the orange idiot has broken. We were fracturing before he got there, but now it’s clearly broken into a gazillion pieces. I certainly hope that Joe Biden becomes the next President of United States. He’s certainly not a perfect candidate. He’s clearly lost a step, but I think he’s the right person at the right time for what we need. I think America is going to see that on November 3. God help us if we don’t! Have a great day Roger…
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It is indeed a strange time when Democrats and Liberals can took back to the eras of LBJ, Nixon and later George Bush jnr with a sort of ‘They weren’t so bad. If only they hadn’t….’ view..(rose coloured or otherwise).
I fervently wish you well for November, for if his creators on the Right blidnly vote him back in there will so much disfunction..
So much that to repair the damage you will need a ruthless operator of your system, a not-very-nice person but one with a near messianic intent to unite the nation again, never mind who they tread on. They won’t be a dictator but would be a expert manipulator of the majority of the population across the racial, religious and cultural divides and maybe not someone the USA would have seen before, maybe someone who could get themselves a third term too.
Stormy times ahead.
I will be thinking for you guys.
Take care Jeff.
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Thanks Roger. We need all the help we can get!!
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It’s not black guns killing black people, it’s black people.
Soooooo. If you want real results, by your own argument, you need to ban black people. Sounds kinda racist to me.
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Not sure I quite understand your point John.
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Jill Dennison, Brookingslib and Rawgod, here is a video for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTA2105xumQ I agree with Ben Shapiro politically speaking. Having said that, to David Pakman’s credit, he presented himself with a great deal of class.
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I watched your video, Ragnar, and was appalled you could condone such bullshit. Being non-American, this is just rhetoric piled on top of rhetoric until you cannot see the floor for all the shit piled on top of it. (Please excuse the language, Jeff, I usually restrain myself, but watching this Shapiro character saying America is only defending itself from tyranny by owning more and more weapons including AK47S, etc. is making my calm, Canadian blood boil.) Your founding fathers did want to ensure tyranny never took over the nation, but the way the NRA and others interpret this amendment is creating tyranny, not by the government, but by the citizens who are supposed to be protecting the nation.
Shapiro is right on one count, most gun violence is committed by young men 16 to 25, or 55, or whatever. But the solution is not to put them in jail. The solution is to give them the tools and opportunities to be equal to those whom they are stepped on by.
You have in America, and I doubt anyone will disagree here, haves and have nots. When the haves work to protect what they have, to prevent the have nots from sharing in what they have, this creates a fission point. Something has to blow. And, thanks to the Second Amendment, the weapons are there to be used both by the have nots to try and take what they don’t have, and the defending haves who don’t want to have things taken away from them. Where there is inequality, the solution is to create equality, not to throw the have nots in jail, where they learn to use better and more violent tactics to try to take what they are being prevented from having.
If you followed all that, you deserve a medal. But it needs to be said. Quit supporting the rich while blaming the poor. Start blaming the rich, who refuse to share, and start supporting the poor to not having the shit falling down on them.
I better stop here, or I will have to write a book on the stupidity of American who support the pursuit of wealth at the expense of the people they exploit!
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Well said, rawgod!! And I mean not just the thought, but the words as well. Good job!
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Rawgod, you are entitled to your opinion. When armed robbers start beating down your door, you can’t come to me and say, “Damn, I wish I had a gun to defend myself with” when you might be looking down the barrel of one yourself. As harsh as it sounds, short of being on hard times due to no fault of one’s own, being in poverty is a choice.
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Like Nan has said, you live in a perpetual state of fear. It’s a sad place to be and I refuse to live in it.
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Brookingslib, I know that you don’t believe this, however, the fact of the matter is that gun-wielding criminals don’t give a damn about what gun laws are on the books.
Nan, I am not one to look for conflict. Having said that, I am not going to sit down and take what comes to me without some response.
Rawgod, if there is a sign on someone’s doorstep that says, “Nothing here is worth losing your life over,” do you think that would be a good deterrent to a conflict?
Jill Dennison, can you explain logically the double-standard behind politicians trying to legislate the gun issue to restrict our right to self-defense and yet they always seem to have armed security on their persons at all times?
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If armed robbers came to my door, I would invite them in, and offer to have them take anything they needed, without interfering. They are only things, and can be replaced. To defend things at the cost of lives is incredibly stupid. I will NEVER say, Damn, I wish I had a gun to defend myself with.
Meanwhile, poverty is only a choice for those who are used to having g things, and even then I would argue the point. Poverty is a social condition that prevents people from getting things. Poor education, shit jobs, sitter pay, all of that is designed to keep poor people poor. And, of course, rich people rich. You are obviously white. You are used to having these things within your grasp. There is no thought of ever NOT HAVING THESE THINGS. For someone born into poverty, having anything at all is a dream, a fantasy. Certainly, some succeed, but they are the exceptions, and the obstacles they had to overcome are numerous and tremendous. To a white person, used to having things, the cry is, “Obstacle? What obstacles?” Consider yourself lucky you were born white.
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Rawgod, even if I am white, which I am, I don’t condone racism in any regard.
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I never said you do not condone it. But take a good look, sir. You do perpetuate it.
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Rawgod, I am sure you read history, however, look at Columbine, the Pulse Nightclub attack, the movie theater shooting in Aurora, Colorado following the showing of Batman: The Dark Knight Rises. Every single one of them was supposed to be a gun-free zone. How did that work out?
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They all worked out tragically. Having defensive guns may not have helped, but only added to the tragedy themselves. We have mo way to know. But no matter what you say to me, Ragnar, you live in a sick society, and you cannot heal the problem by throwing more guns at it, or throwing the have-nots in jail. America has been trying that for centuries, and it just keeps getting worse and worse. You are not part of a solution, but your thinking is part of the problem.
We are getting along well enough on my blog,and hopefully we can find common ground on your blog. But on this blog, neither of us are going to budge. I will not condone guns on any level, final statement. There can be no middle ground. They are not necessary to life in any way. This issue is black and white in too many ways. There can be no grey in gun ownership, or gun use!
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Rawgod, I had offered you the option of following my blog and leaving me any comments. You don’t have to do either, however, you can read my blog at will and I will be delighted to discuss the items I review. You can also share some ideas in my introductory posts about a hot sauce you have had experience with and enjoyed.
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Well said Rawgod. Well said my friend.
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Rawgod, I did not say that I condone gun violence. I just said that I agree with Ben Shapiro politically more than I do David Pakman.
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My apologies. Ben Shapiro is a gun nut, as far as I can tell. It is usually gun nuts who agree with them.
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Rawgod, here are a few questions I would like to get your thoughts on: 1: Political bias aside, who came to the discussion better prepared: Ben Shapiro or David Pakman? 2: Does the history of the Aurora, Colorado movie theater shooting, a shooting in a supposedly gun-free zone, negate the argument for gun-free zones? 3: What is to be done about these hypocrite politicians who claim to be anti-gun and yet surround themselves with armed security?
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To begin Ragnar, I have no political biases, though you may think I have some. I do not believe in government, let alone democracy. Politicians are all ego-trippers, and their politics are just attempts to hide that they are control-freaks.
Who came better prepared? Since Shapiro had an ax to grind and Parkman was just reacting to that ax, sure, Shapiro came better prepared. But that does not make him right. He is so full of bullshit he cannot see his ass for standing in the heaps of shit he lives in.
You have mentioned gun-free zones before. You actually believe there are such things as gun-free zones? What the hell does that even mean, gun-free zone? Is that like an airport where you have to go through a metal-detector to get through the door? Were there metal-detectors at the door to the theatre in Aurora? Gun-free zones are a fantasy, especially now that guns and bullets are being made of plastics. Get with the real world, Ragnar, gun-free zones do not exist–anywhere.
Hypocrites are hypocrites, no matter what they are being hypocritical about. I am a hypocrite myself. I don’t believe in killing any living beings, yet in order to survive living beings–animals and plants–have to die to provide my body with sustenance. That is the way life works. Life lives on live. No matter who or what you are, except maybe plankton who I believe live only on sunlight, living beings eat life to survive. The thing is, most plants feed strictly on already dead and decomposing materials that they turn into food with the help of sunlight, excluding Venus Fly Traps and their relatives. Another thing is, most animals kill strictly for food. They eat what they kill, and what they don’t or cannot finish, carrion eaters like crows and maggots finish for them. In nature, almost nothing goes to waste.
And then comes man, who kills for pleasure, or for power. For revenge, or for greed. Or just through sheer curiosity, or hate. And guns and other weapons provide humans the tools to wantonly kill, to no purpose except to fulfill their own fantasies.
This is why I am anti-gun. Not because of politics! Not because I follow the crowd! Everything I believe I have thought about, and come to my own conclusions on. I don’t listen to others, or believe everything I read without full consideration.
Your efforts to play your games are meaningless to me. They are child’s play. I do not surround myself with weapons for protection. I do not need protection. I do not fear death. I am ready for my death whenever it should occur. What others do, that is up to them. But I see no need of any kind to ever kill anyone or anything just because you can. Murder is a waste of life. Guns are a waste of materials that could be better used elsewhere.
Dig?
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Rawgod, I prefer a peaceful world. Having said that, unless it so happens by divine intervention, world peace is an unrealistic expectation.
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Ain’t no divine to intervene, but world peace is doable, just not now.
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Rawgod, just to clear up one area of potential misunderstanding, I was saying that I agreed more with Ben Shapiro on ideological grounds than David Pakman. I like them both equally.
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Sorry, Ragnar, but ideologies are for idiots, no insult intended. Take yourself away from ideologies, I know you have the intelligence to do so.
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Rawgod, maybe I am misinterpreting your advice, however, it seems to me that you are encouraging me to not buy into a Left/Right way of thinking.
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I am hoping you can throw away those designations if you want to. That choice is yours. If you like such designations, be free to keep them. In regards to myself, if I have to place myself to choose a position on that axis, I choose to be so far left of centre that Marxism looks right wing to me. But then, I only put myself on that axis for the sake of people who need to be left or right. For myself, I am Responsible Anarchist. I take responsibility to be the best person I can be while being free to do whatever I want without becoming irresponsible. I only do what others want if it aligns with what I want, and as long as no living being gets intentionally harmed in the process.
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Rawgod, I am not an anarchist myself. Having said that, I am a leave me alone kind of guy.
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So, to see if I understand you, you believe people need to be governed, but you can live without government for yourself? It this a fairly true statement about you? How would you change it to make it completely true?
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Rawgod, you misunderstand me. I have a libertarian nonaggression principle that influences my thinking. The government should leave me alone as long as I am not disturbing order in society.
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Should and do are often two different things. Meanwhile, I don’t know much about libertarians.
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Rawgod, libertarians are basically people with a leave us alone mentality.
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There has to be more than that, or at least it sounded like it. You’re saying, I think, libertarians can be left, right, center or nowhere, like me. Is that correct? I thought it was a political position in itself.
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Rawgod, I think libertarianism has a little of both built into the ideology.
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By the way, Ragnar, I finally got to your blog tonight, and there is nothing there for me, sorry. As I said, I cannot tolerate any kind of spice that is even warm. Hot sauces would kill me. Thanks, but I will stick to garlic, and onions, as my flavour enhancers. They do well with things like parsnips and turnips. Those are flavours I enjoy.
Do you happen to have another blog that does not involve food?
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Rawgod, I do not. The reason being that I am having limited patience for the political shit show on display.
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It is a shitshow, but it is part of the world whether we want it to be or not. You don’t seem to be avoiding it, you certainly have your opinions. Just as I have mine. But I understand my motivations. I’m not sure I understand yours.
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Rawgod, you have been invited to comment on my blog if you ever feel so inclined. If you change your mind, the offer still stands.
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I couldn’t find an appropriate place to make that comment. It didn’t seem appropriate there.
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Rawgod, if you ever decide to drop any comments, the only thing I would ask is that the language be watched.
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Yup, I read that
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Rawgod, I am the sole moderator of my blog. If I got a few hundred comments all at one time, I would make time to read them all. Some may be in waiting as I will require time to read them all. Comments that are clean will be approved without exception. Those that are anything but clean will not be tolerated.
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Rawgod, you missed the point. I said that I agreed with Ben Shapiro politically more than David Pakman. To his credit, David Pakman brought some facts to the discussion worth noting. Nothing I said indicated that he was 100% right or wrong.
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Rawgod, I was saying that I agree with Ben Shapiro on political grounds. If you listen to him in more detail, he is very persuasive in his arguments.
Brookingslib, I listen to David Pakman, as well as many other people on the Left with much regularity. I like how he handled himself and had a rational discussion with Ben Shapiro on this issue.
Nan, I would like to live in a world that was 100% peaceful. Unless and until that changes, we are basically where we are. The issue is not law-abiding gun owners having guns. What the issue seems to me is that gun ownership is being infringed upon in response to the actions of gun-crazed lunatics.
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Ragnar, if it were up to me, I’d severely limit what guns Americans can own and how they go about owning them. Everyone should take a firearms and safety course, have mandatory waiting periods/background checks, and should never be able to possess an assault rifle of any kind. That’s my perfect world, which will never occur in my lifetime. It’s a shame.
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Brookingslib, if it were up to me, I would limit the regulations to prohibition of sales to people under the age 18 unless a parent was purchasing the gun to do some target practice with the kid(s) in question. I would do thorough background checks to determine statuses related to criminal history and potential history of mental illness.
Rawgod, it may not be clear to many people, however, there is a difference between agreeing with someone in terms of general ideology and disagreeing on certain issues with said person. Example: Some politicians in the USA want to enact a Constitutional Amendment to have a legal definition of marriage as the union of a man and a woman. Personally, as long as they are consenting adults, sexual orientation and preference is irrelevant. On the matter of the discussion between David Pakman and Ben Shapiro, both came very well prepared in terms of the discussion.
Neil Rickert, any person can try to pass off any Amendment to the U.S. Constitution as not being absolute, however, “the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed” seems absolute to me.
Nan, it is unrealistic to believe that all guns will be immediately eliminated and all violence will be eliminated from the face of the Earth. Apply some common sense here.
Jill Dennison, I am sure it is not necessary, however, if you require a history lesson, most, if not all, mass shootings happened in gun-free zones.
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Some of your suggestions are reasonable. I would just go much further than you.
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Brookingslib, we have some degree of agreement here, if not complete agreement.
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Agreed
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Brookingslib, I am glad that we can find some areas of agreement even if not 100% agreement.
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Same here
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Brookingslib, you mentioned following my blog. It can be entirely at your discretion, however, while it is true that my blog is not a discussion forum, I welcome comments on what I review, regardless of how lengthy they are. If spicy foods are something you enjoy or an occasional recipe that involves spicy food, I would be delighted to discuss that with you. Any items you would like to make a list of that you would like to see a review of can be dropped in the first official post.
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That sounds good. If I come across some spicy foods I’ll do that. I’m not too much of a spicy food guy but sometimes I do.
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I understand. You do not necessarily have to engage in them, however, if you have any suggestions for anything for me to review, feel free to share at will.
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Rawgod, I agree with Ben Shapiro on ideological grounds. To be fair to David Pakman and to his credit, he actually seemed to be reasonable enough to get Ben Shapiro’s perspective. We have to look for solutions that can appeal to everybody without violating the rights of law-abiding people to own guns,
Nan, I find it to be rather laughable how a woman can defend the termination of an unborn fetus via an abortion and yet there are crocodile tears from people on the Left being shed over deaths of children after gun violence. Can you not see that hypocrissy for what it is?
Brookingslib, given the choice, I would rather use a firearm for target practice on a soda can than in terms of defending myself unless it was absolutely necessary. If you have ever seen the Home Alone movies, particularly #1 and #2, Kevin McCallister used what could be seen as relatively non-lethal methods to defend himself, however, those tactics were rather effective.
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On behalf of Brookingslib, Home Alone was a movie. If you cannot tell the difference between real life and a scripted story, you have lost touch with reality.
On behalf of Nan, fetuses are not babies or children. They are unborn pieces of meat with the potential to become a living being. In every society in the world, in every species in the world, life begins at birth. Otherwise we would be celebrating Conception Days, not Birthdays. Until birth any fetus can be rejected or miscarried, and no one can say what fetus should come to term, and which should not. But we do know when a woman’s life could be endangered by carrying a fetus or during birth. To force a woman to risk her life for the birth of a child is just stupid and unnecessary.
Both Brookinglib and Nan can answer as they will, I am not trying to put words in their mouths. I am giving you my thoughts on the topics you directed to them.
As for the topic you assigned me, Nob9dy has the right to own a weaponed designed purely for murder! i don’t care about the laws of humans, or the laws of some fictitious God. To end life, LIVING LIFE, for any reason but to stave off starvation is wrong! No one needs to own a gun for any reason whatsover. FULL STOP!
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Rawgod, you implied that Canada took its freedom From Britain peacefully. You know this how? For the record, the comment about my agreeing with Ben Shapiro was on ideological matters in general. David Pakman in my opinion was right about a lot of what he says and to his credit, he did not rant and rage about his opinion on the matter.
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I really don’t know where you dug this conversation up, Ragnar, but isn’t it time to move on. The world is facing a whole new set of problems. I’m waiting hour to hour to hear I have to evacuate my home due to wildfires. Climate change is now!
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Rawgod, people who go on rants about climate change are the very people who contribute to it.
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Everybody contributes in it in some way or other. G20 nations are the worst contributors, and since I live in one I am guilty. But at least I try. The town where I live does not recycle — they say it costs too much because we are so far away from civilization. But my partner and I save our recyclbles, and when we travel south to plavcs that have recycling stations we take it all with us.
Because we live so far away from big population centres, we must have a ptivate venicle, so we drive a Honda CRV which has fabulius gas mileage. We cannot buy an electric vehicle because the nearest public charging station is 800 kilometres away.
Those goods we can reuse, we reuse over and over till they start falling apart. We do what we can to help Mother Earth. So don’t tell me people who go on rants are the only people who contribute to climate change. I rant because not enough people do!
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Rawgod, I agree.
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I try, Jeff, and I will keep on trying. I just wish Spelchek would stop making me look so uneducated. Whoever designed Spelchek was not an English Major!
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Just wondering, Ragnar. This discussipn started in June, 2020. It is now 2-1/2 years later. The world has moved on. What is it that keeps you coming back? I don’t get it.
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Rawgod, to clear up one detail, I agree with Ben Shapiro in terms of overall ideology. To his credit, David Pakman also came to the discussion with pertinent information. Nan, gun-free zones are ripe with potential targets for gun violence. Jill Dennison, I would like to live in a 100% peaceful world. Given the state of things, both domestic and foreign, that makes this expectation not completely realistic.
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Rawgod, I did not say that Ben Shapiro is right on the gun issue in entirety, nor did I claim that he is wrong. The same holds true for David Pakman. They both came prepared with information on the subject.
Brookingslib, as far as the exchange between David Pakman and Ben Shapiro is concerned, who came to that discussion better prepared?
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Sorry friend. I never watched the whole video. My patience for right-wing so called ‘journalists’ is at an all time low. I just can’t stomach it anymore.
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Brookingslib, I would not consider Ben Shapiro to be a journalist. Just a political commentator. To be fair to me and in my defense, I have not thrown any insults insofar as I know or Rawgod or any other people I have responded to.
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Brookingslib, I would not consider Ben Shapiro to be a journalist. Just a political commentator. To be fair to me and in my defense, I have not thrown any insults insofar as I know at you or Rawgod or any other people I have responded to.
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Brookingslib, I would not consider Ben Shapiro to be a journalist. Just a political commentator. To be fair to me and in my defense, I have not thrown any insults insofar as I know at you or Rawgod or any other people I have responded to.
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Brookingslib, if the less guns=less crime logic actually worked, which it does not, malls, movie theaters, schools, to name 3 examples, should be the safest places on Earth. What about the Virginia Tech shooting? All of that adds up to the fact that gun-free zones don’t work unless all guns are removed from a country by law.
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unless all guns are removed from a country by law.
BINGO!
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Nan, what about law enforcement? Should they have guns and not the average citizen?
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Rawgod, I think some context was missed in the comment I made about my agreeing more with Ben Shapiro than David Pakman. Ideologically speaking, I tend to agree with Ben Shapiro on political ideology. To be fair, David Pakman made his share of valid points.
Brookingslib, unless and until elected officials turn down Secret Service protection, people who are armed with guns, I would argue that they are hypocrites if they refuse to lead by example. Just my thoughts.
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So Ragnar, political officials on the left and right should ignore the death threats most of them get on a daily basis? This is a violent world friend. They should do what they must for protection even if that means armed security. Not sure what protection Gabby Giffords had because her assailant got through it. She’s advocated for common sense gun regulations ever since. I think she’s brave and honorable in doing so.
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Brookingslib, I never said that. You clearly missed the point I am making. Don’t feel comfortable being around guns? Don’t be environments where they are visibly in sight. Problem solved.
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We’ll never agree on guns ragnar. Never
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We won’t agree on the tax issue either.
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Nope. We don’t. We do agree on Medicare for All though. So that’s something!
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Brookingslib, here is a hypothetical scenario for you: 2 people are patronizing a coffee shop, 1 with an actively carried firearm, 1 who refuses to carry because of a fear of firearms. The management has no issue with the firearms that the person who is a customer may have, however, the other customer makes a fuss about it. Should the person with the fear of guns be allowed to dictate whether the gun owner should leave to increase the comfort of the non-gun owner or should that person just shut up and mind his or her own business?
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The coffee shop owner can do as he pleases. If he’s ok with open carry customers, so be it. The guy who doesn’t like guns is within his rights to tell the owner his feelings. My advice to the anti-gun guy is to cease ever going there again. Question for you: does a place of business have the right to ban guns in his or her business? Personally, that’s the kind of business I would want to go to. That’s just me
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The owner of the business has every right to decide who he or she serves as customers. Having said that, nobody has the right to demand that the management force other people out just to make them comfortable. Heck, I find bars to be unappealing because I have no desire to touch alcohol. Having said that, as long as I am not being harmed by it, I have no right to put them out of business.
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I’m wondering … what about this scenario? The person who feels uncomfortable about open carry goes to the manager and expresses his feelings. The manager may not be opposed to the practice, but in order to serve ALL his customers, he goes to the person with the gun and asks him if he wouldn’t mind either (1) concealing it under his shirt if it’s a pistol, or (2) if it’s a rifle, putting it in the car while he’s in the coffee shop.
Of course if the gun carrier refuses either action, then the disgruntled customer has no choice but to leave. In any case, it bespeaks of compromise … which too many people nowadays seem to feel is a sign of weakness!
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Nan, I could see merit to your suggestions.
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Don’t be environments where they are visibly in sight.
Now THAT is a tough one if you live in states (e.g., Texas) that allow open carry. What does a person do when they need to go grocery shopping? Delivery only? C’mon rag … don’t get so involved in defending your “gun rights” philosophy that you make statements like this!
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Nan, you come across as very intelligent in your rebuttals. My compliments to you on that basis. Having said that, your conclusions are largely erroneous.
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Erroneous to who? You? Simply because two people disagree on something does not make one person “right” and the other “wrong.” Even when a person references other sources to “prove a point” does not necessarily mean the sources are valid and/or supported by the majority.
This is why there’s always going to be division in politics (especially) because, in essence, “proof” (but not always evidence) can always be found to validate one’s beliefs.
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Nan, it depends on who is willing to present information to back up his or originally held opinions.
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Rawgod, in my question about political biases, I meant that question in relationship to Ben Shapiro and David Pakman respectively. Who had the better position on the solution of reducing gun deaths: Ben Shapiro or David Pakman?
Brookingslib, despite our areas of disagreement, I am very much enjoying your blog.
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Good hearing from you Ragnar. I appreciate that. Thanks for participating. You’ve always been civil. That’s all I expect.
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Brookingslib, I know that you probably have little, if any, patience for what you classify as Right-wing journalism. However, I will look at each thing I think about sharing with you in great detail, be it an article or video. The only request is that you be willing to look into it and give me feedback.
The David Pakman and Ben Shapiro exchange was not on a Right-wing news source, as David Pakman is a Left-leaning individual. By the way, my comment relating to agreeing with Ben Shapiro, which was in response to Rawgod, was not entirely related to the gun issue. The comment was related to ideology in general.
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I’ll do that Ragnar. Like I told you in another comment, I’ll look at stuff in the 5-6 minute range. Anything more and I tend to move on. Just an FYI
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Brookingslib, I will be sure to be mindful of that. I will also make sure that it is a worthwhile share. Do you have much experience with Thom Hartmann? Sam Seder? The David Pakman Show? The Young Turks?
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I know all of them but I listen to Thom Harmann every day. I really like him. The others I do not listen to.
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I disagree with them politically/ideologically speaking. However, I like to listen to them all. What are your thoughts on Vox?
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Vox is pretty good. They lean left, at least they did. They do a lot of comprehensive journalism with facts to back it up most of the time. I haven’t read much recently. I liked Ezra Klein, who I believe co-founded it, but he’s now with the NY Times. I still think they’re credible though. You?
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I like Vox, however, I disagree with the ideological slant.
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Rawgod, my comment related to agreeing with Ben Shapiro more than David Pakman was solely based on ideology. I did not say that one person was entirely wrong and the other person was entirely correct. Both guys made their share of valid points. Neither guy shouted down the other, which I actually do like.
Brookingslib, I know that we have some areas of disagreement. What I like about your blog is the fact that you don’t go into the ranting that some people seem to want to engage in. You come across as quite reasonable and levelheaded in your posts and responses to comments that some people have made.
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I appreciate that Ragnar. I want honest debate, not hyped up name-calling and ranting. That’s my goal, at least. Sometimes politics is vicious and unreasonable. I can get as heated as the next person. We have to lower the temp as much as possible. Thanks for adhering to that concept.
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Brookingslib, I am of the belief that you, Nan, Jill Dennison, Rawgod and I all want to live in a peaceful and non-violent world. The gun rights crowd can get somewhat trigger happy-pardon the pun, however, recreational use of firearms and that for home defense I see no problem with.
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Actually I don’t find fault with those either. I just feel you should be properly licensed, registered, background checked, and even complete a safety course, before you ever are allowed to purchase one. That’s just me. Would you be ok with those?
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Brookingslib, registering guns I find to be an invasion of privacy.
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We disagree.
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Not a surprise.
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Rawgod, I am aware of your disdain for some of what Ben Shapiro had said in his exchange with David Pakman on the gun issue. You in a way took my expressed sentiments in a way that was not intended. I did not say that Ben Shapiro was 100% right or 100% wrong. The same is true for David Pakman, at least in the sense that I did not view him as being 100% right or 100% wrong. The question about political bias was intended in the sense that David Pakman and Ben Shapiro are of polar opposites politically, however, who came to the discussion better prepared?
Brookingslib, political bias aside, who came to the discussion on the gun issue better prepared between Ben Shapiro and David Pakman in your opinion?
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I finally watched the video in its entirety Ragnar. It was a little longer than I usually would indulge, but I know you wanted me to check it out so I did. I thought they were both cordial and offered up some good points. I think they were both prepared, fairly equally. It seemed to me the one major point where they differed the most was in the area of how the 2nd Amendment was put in place solely for the purpose of arming the public so they’d be able to stand up to a tyrannical government. Shapiro is all-in on the tyrannical govt theme, while Pakman is not. I’m, of course, am with Pakman on this.
Also, where do you draw the line on what kind of “arms” we can own? It seems Shapiro is at least open for regulation on some weapons, which, I suppose shows he’s being fair. All in all, it was a good conversation between two guys who are on opposite sides politically. For that, they should be commended.
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Brookingslib, I will watch every video before I share them. I am sure that you are busy with a lot of things, however, I will only share what I believe to be relevant to the posts I comment on.
Regarding David Pakman, I do like how he presents himself. He has not gone into significant ranting like some of the people I listen to.
Anything I share I will look at the length of time of the video before I offer it. I will also provide some context and explanation as to why it is being shared.
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I appreciate that. And Shaprio, to his credit, was also congenial. I’ve seen him not be in other situations, but in this particular video he was good.
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Jeff, I agree. If discussions/debates were as civil as that between Ben Shapiro and David Pakman on the gun issue, I think we would all be better off. Example: Some people say that they believe we should have open and conceal carry permit laws and some people say no to both because they argue that getting a permit is a roundabout way of asking for permission from the government to exercise a Constitutional right. For people who are Second Amendment absolutists, do they not have valid points when they argue that the right of people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed seems to be absolute by its very nature and definition?
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I’ll just say that mandating citizens to do anything as it pertains to laws that govern our society are problematic to some people. Seat belts? Drivers licenses? Vaccine requirements for school or work? Wearing shoes and and a shirt to enter a business? Drug tests? Red lights for cars? Speed limits? No smoking on planes?
I could go on and on. But hopefully you get my drift. Some of these things we’ve accepted over time. Some people don’t accept specific regulations. But, they comply. It ought to be the same with guns Ragnar. I’ve compromised in that I accept the fact we will never get rid of guns in this country. Your side, the 2nd Amendment folks, need to find it in your hearts to compromise as well. The government isn’t always the big bad monster some make it out to be. We need government, unfortunately. Otherwise we have unimaginable chaos. Shall we become Haiti? Somalia? Hell, many countries around the world with weak or non-existent governments for that matter.
Our democracy is messy as hell. But I’ll take it over most of the others around the world. I must obey laws, just like you friend. Asking you or anyone else to comply with more stringent gun safety measures isn’t asking much. Is it?
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Brookingslib, the only gun regulations I will give legitimacy to are those that prohibit sales to people under the age of 18 without parental say so, prohibition of sale to people with a violent criminal history and those with mental health problems. All other regulations, would be scrapped, particularly open vs. conceal carry permit laws, as those are a roundabout way of needing the government’s blessing to own firearms.
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I disagree, but respect your view
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Brookingslib, I am not surprised.
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Rawgod, material possessions have less value than human life. I agree with you on that if that was the point you were trying to make in one response to my comment of a scenario with an armed robbery.
Nan, I find it to be rather convoluted that politicians who speak freely about gun bans are surrounded with security that is armed to the teeth. Either they should forfeit Secret Service protection and lead by example or just shut up about gun regulation nonsense.
Brookingslib, I don’t care what armaments people have in their own homes as long as they are not blasting up public places. Want to own a few historic, even if defunct, missiles for display purposes? Have at it.
Jill Dennison, unless and until politicians who talk about gun control forfeit Secret Service protection, they should just shut up about the issue of gun control and gun confiscation. Just my thoughts.
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Personal protection for elected officials is mandatory. There are too many “citizens” WITH GUNS that would kill or injure these individuals simply because they don’t like their “politics.” Now if those same “citizens” were not allowed to have guns, the scenario might be much different.
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Nan, your point being what exactly? If politicians don’t want us to have guns, they should not be able to have them either.
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If you were unable to recognize my point, then I can’t help you.
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Nan, politicians who swear to uphold and defend the U.S. Constitution should defend the document as a whole. They should not defend the parts that they like and disregard the other parts because they don’t fit their agenda.
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“As long as they are not blasting up public places.” Isn’t that the uniquely American experience Ragnar? Isn’t that what sets us apart from other civilized societies? You obviously are willing to accept a few “blasting up public places” all in the name of you being able to possess as many firearms as you want. I simply disagree emphatically. Nice hearing from you. Hope you have a good holiday
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Brookingslib, you got this all wrong.
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Brookingslib, in one statement you said, “We love our firearms way too much.” That is an unfair generalization. It is also completely disingenuous. Are you unaware of the fact that the Aurora, Colorado movie theater shooting took place in a gun-free zone? Columbine? Virginia Tech? You might want to review history before advocating for positions like what you do.
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We have more guns than any other so-called civilized society. Those are the facts. And by the way, a good guy with a gun couldn’t take down the shooter in Buffalo. Why? Because he had body armor. Dressed like a military guy with all the bells and whistles. That blows the 2nd Amendment folks’ argument out of the water, right? That’s the America you want Ragnar? A literal wild west on our streets? That’s not what I want, nor is it what most Americans want either. Ban the damn AR15s and other firearms like it. That’s my solution. Oh, and the high-capacity magazines too. Enough with the carnage please
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Brookingslib, I did not dispute any of that.
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Brookingslib, I know that many (not all) Left-leaning types are Constitutionally illiterate, as is demonstrated by the fact that they want to use various parts, e.g. the General Welfare Clause to justify the notion that we have a right to things like health care. They onlty focus on the part of the Second Amendment that talks about militias being necessary being necessary for the protection of a free state, however, they omit the part about the right of the people to keep and bear arms not being infringed upon.
Neil Rickert, what part of “shall not be infringed” is so easily lost on people? “Shall not be infringed” seems to be quite absolute. Do you see an expiration date on the Second Amendment? If you don’t like guns, put a sign in your front yard stating that your home is a gun free zone. See how that works out for you.
Don Ostertag, the best way to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill is to keep them out of the hands of democrats. The Constitution had provisions for enacting and/or repealing Amendments. Even if government tried to take all of the guns, people would do the same thing that the American colonists did to the British.
Jill Dennison, the people who always complain about gun murders also seem to have no issue with the murder of the unborn. In case you require a lesson consisting of basic facts, it seems to me that more deaths are due to abortion, drunk driving, speeding and long-term use of tobacco products.
Nan, I am not a gun nut, however, I am capable of reading the U.S. Constitution. There is no Constitutional right to a taxpayer-funded abortion and yet we have people who talk about a woman’s right to choose to have one and yet those same people want to keep people from exercising a basic Constitutional right?
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Brookingslib, there is a lot of demand for gun control from people on the Left after mass shootings, however, there is no demand for border control after a massive surge of illegal aliens across the U.S.-Mexico border.
Nan, in every case of mass shootings, at least as far as I can tell, the police are called to investigate and what do they carry? Guns. I also find it to be laughable that the politicians who are all for these extreme regulations have armed security with them at all times.
Jill Dennison, with the exception of rape, incest and the risk to the life of the Mother, I find it to be rather absurd that many people have no compunction about arbitrary abortion of the unborn under the reasoning “my body, my choice” and yet are all in favor of confiscating guns from law-abiding people in response to mass shootings. Can you not see the logical inconsistency in that reasoning?
Neil Rickert, if people want to keep guns out of the hands of violent criminals and the mentally ill, start with the democrats all giving up their guns. When was the last time a republican or a libertarian went out on a shooting spree?
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Ban all assault weapons. Revert back to Roe v Wade before the radical right SCOTUS reversed. Where are you getting your mass shooting stats? Perhaps you ought to add a few reputable sources to what you consume? Was the guy who shot up the all black church in South Carolina a Democrat? Was the guy who shot up the gay nightclub a Dem? Please get your facts straight before you spout your right-wing talking points. Thanks
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Brookingslib, it is clear that you have not read the U.S. Constitution recently. There is nothing in it that gives the government the power to dictate abortion being legal or illegal. While there is a process required to ratify and repeal Amendments, unless and until all guns are banned, there is no authority to arbitrarily ban firearms at this point.
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The Weller/DC decision, written by Scalia, states that governments may regulate weapons. Yes, you have a right to own a gun. But also, governments can decide which ones you can and cannot have. Why do you continue to go down this road, Ragnar? We reached common ground on this a while back, did we not? You know where I stand.
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Sorry for interjecting here, Jeff, but he reminds me of a dog with a bone.
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On some issues, Nan, absolutely
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Brookingslib, because I would consider myself a Second Amendment absolutist. “The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed” seems to be more absolutist than a Supreme Court ruling that says anything to the contrary.
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Then I guess you’re also a strict constructionist regarding the Constitution? In other words, what the Founders wrote, is exactly how we should interpret the document. Also, that is commonly referred to as an originalist. Is that you? Because in my case I believe it’s a living/breathing document. Don’t you think things have changed a bit in the last 250 years? Was there an internet in 1789? Was there an AR15, or magazines that can fire off multiple bullets in seconds and can rip a person’s organs to shreds? I would think the Founders would have a problem with ordinary citizens carrying around such weapons. In my opinion.
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Brookingslib, where in this living and breathing document does it give government the authority to mandate vaccines? Where does it say that guns can be confiscated without due process?
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Brookingslib, many politicians who push for gun control in response to mass shootings seem to not be able to differentiate between people who commit crimes with guns and people who use guns for hunting and sport. Rather than blame the gun for a gun-related tragedy, blame the person who is or was responsible for it.
Jill Dennison, gun ownership is not only a right, it is a Constitutionally-protected right. I don’t require government permission slips to tell me what Constitutional rights I can and cannot actively exercise.
Neil Rickert, if the government tried to beat down my door and decide that I had more guns than I needed, at least according to them, that would be a direct violation of a Constitutionally-protected right.
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If it were me, I’d ban just about every damn gun imaginable and make it near impossible to get one. That’s just me, and I know it will never happen. America is the most violent society in the so-called civilized world. And guns are THE major reason.
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Brookingslib, tell law-abiding people who own guns that they are the catalyst for the problems you mention. That would really fall flat on its face.
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Too bad. Frankly, I couldn’t care less.
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Whatever you say, good sir.
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Brookingslib, putting more rules would be infringing on our gun rights even more than they already are is a violation of the rights protected under the Second Amendment. Government could outlaw all of the guns and that would result in people breaking the law to get them. Want to know what to do to fix the mental health issues related to this matter? Keep the guns out of the hands of the mentally ill, people with a history of violent tendencies and also the hands of the democrats.
Jill Dennison, the people who scream the loudest for gun control are probably the same people who believe in abortion on-demand. Anybody who decries the murder of innocent children due to guns and yet defends the legality of abortion on-demand is a colossal hypocrite.
Neil Rickert, the same government that wants to violate our Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms is governed by the same type of people who facilitated gun running operations in Benghazi, Libya. How exactly is that logic supposed to work?
1EarthUnited, politicians who push for gun control clearly don’t read the full text of the Second Amendment. “The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed” seems to be absolute.
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Well, the GOP always mentions mental health when it comes to this issue, but they never want to put resources into it. Why?
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Brookingslib, maybe because they assume that it is the responsibility of a mental health expert to deal with.
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Regardless, in order to make a difference, resources are needed. And the GOP never puts their money where their mouth is. That’s the problem.
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Brookingslib, a hypothetical for you: A law-abiding citizen uses guns for hunting and home defense, however, leaves it locked up in a safe otherwise. Why are politicians who push for gun control going after people who have no known criminal history or that of mental illness in response to crazy people who have one or both problems in response to gun-related tragedies? I would rather make target practice on a soda can if given the choice than I would be in a confrontation where injury or death is an end result. Just my thoughts.
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I think when you have a society like we do, one where there are more guns in circulation than the entire population-by many millions, btw-we ought to see what we can do to reverse that. That’s my take. And the statistics bear that out when you compare the U.S. to other civilized societies. Some things are just verifiably true. And this is one of those times where you cannot refute the facts. We have the most guns. We have the most violent deaths associated with those guns. No?
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No argument there. Having said that, if someone only uses guns for hunting and sport or home defense, even occasional target practice on soda cans, why should that person be required to turn over his or her guns by government decree if that person is not harming anybody in the course of his or her activities?
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On the surface, your scenario makes sense. But unfortunately, there is no way to filter out the a person’s purpose for buying or owning a gun. Sure, you can SAY it’s for a particular purpose, but when push comes to shove, there’s simply no way to lawfully determine a person’s motives. The ONLY way would be psychological testing … and how many would submit to that???
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Nan, democrats probably won’t. Just look at Maxine Waters. She has become more mentally unstable as time goes on.
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This has NOTHING to do with political parties (OR individuals). I’m saying gunowners in general would be HIGHLY unlikely to submit to any psychological testing. Stop trying to divert the topic to your personal political bent.
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Nan, I was answering your question about psychological testing. The psychosis affecting modern political discourse has originated with democrats by and large.
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Ok, if that’s the case, let’s do some psychological testing on Marjorie Taylor Green, Lauren Boebert, and Paul Gosar. And while we’re at it, how about Trump? Please don’t go down that road. The right has the market cornered on whack jobs. Sorry to break that to you
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Brookingslib, there are a lot on both sides of the aisle.
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Only one side tried to overthrow a legal and fair election. A first in the history of the USA. But sure, so ahead and overlook that. Also overlook the fact that the vast majority of mass shootings and political violence in recent years is being perpetrated by far-right domestic extremists. I’m sure you will disagree. Those are facts. Like I said, the whack jobs are on your side. Oh, wait, was it Antifa who stormed the Capitol? The nut jobs at Fox, who blatantly lie to their viewers every damn day, are still trying to push that narrative. My friend, you call yourself a libertarian but you are on the far extreme on so many issues. Very troubling to me.
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Brookingslib, I am owned by no politician or corporate interest. I have ownership of myself and my actions. Unlike a lot of people, I am not susceptible to the temptation of being bribed with free stuff in exchange for my vote at the ballot box.
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Nobody’s talking about handing over guns to government. Even I know it’s never going to happen. We need stricter gun control moving forward. Much stricter. In my opinion, that is.
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Brookingslib, try reading the full text of the Second Amendment. I know that Leftists only pay attention to the 16th and 17th Amendments more than any of the rest.
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has originated with democrats … you just can’t resist, can you?
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Nan, how many republicans threatened to blow up the White House during Barack Obama’s presidency? None. What about during Joe Biden’s presidency? Oh, wait. None.
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The post topic is guns.
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Nan, you missed the point.
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No, I didn’t. You brought up “blowing up the White House.” Somehow I doubt that could be done with a gun …
All you’re doing is trying to deflect from the fact that guns KILL in the hands of the wrong people. And unfortunately, the “rights” of the Second Amendment that you so adamantly defend, does not differentiate who falls into the category. So the killings continue.
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Nan, what is the solution: Deprive law-abiding citizens of a Constitutionally-protected right? Are Left-leaning types Constitutionally-illiterate or are they just cherry-picking the parts they like and those they don’t when trying to enact laws to fit their agenda? Abortion results in more deaths than guns, however, according to you, it is nobody’s business if a woman chooses to have one.
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The key words in your comment are “law-abiding.” It’s impossible to know who is going to be “law-abiding” at the time of a gun purchase. Just because a person goes through the checks and balances to buy a gun does not mean that person won’t go out and kill others. So long as guns are available , there will ALWAYS be the danger of mass killings. AND other killings.
I don’t have a solution. I truly wish I did because I know there are individuals who would NEVER use a gun to kill others. But there is simply NO getting away from the fact that there ARE people who use guns to take innocent lives.
It’s been advanced that AR-15s be banned … and personally, I think this is a step in the right direction since this is the weapon used in most mass killings.
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Nan, if we were in a world that was more peaceful, I would agree with you.
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Spot on.
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Btw, you always talk about the radical left. Is there a radical right, in your view?
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I would put Alex Jones in that category.
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He’s one of many
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Brookingslib, I only go to Alex Jones as a source of entertainment. An occasional news story here and there, however, more for the entertainment factor.
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Do you watch Fox? And do you also watch because of the ‘entertainment’ factor? Because that’s all they are. They are not ‘News.’
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Brookingslib, I watch Maria Bartiromo, Greg Gutfeld, Tucker Carlson, Mark Levin, Sean Hannity and Bret Baier. Other than that, I prefer to get my information from Breitbart news, Lew Rockwell, The Drudge Report, Infowars only as I judge the material relevant and then with significant skepticism and fact checking.
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Ragnar. I hate to tell you this, but you’re being duped. None of those outlets are credible. None of them. Do you know, for example, that Fox is being sued by Dominion Voting Systems in a defamation suit for $1.6 billion? That’s the company responsible for many of the voting machines used throughout the country. And they’re being sued for willingly and purposely lying to their viewers. There are text messages from Tucker, Hannity, Ingraham etc… with all of them knowing the crackpots they were putting on there were full of crap. In other words, they knew Trump lost. Legally. Yet, they continued the facade because they feared losing people like you to other far-right networks.
I bet you don’t even know about it because Fox is not talking about it on air. Here’s what I hope. They lose the case, have to fork over billions, and fire most of the hosts. Then, they need to publicly apologize to their viewers for knowingly lying. Even better, maybe it makes the Murdochs sell or disband the network. We would be a much better country without the networks/media outlets you get your news from. Two former Prime Ministers of Australia, one conservative, the other liberal, have called the Murdochs a cancer on democracy. I could not agree more.
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Brookingslib, the Dominion voting machines were likely Chinese manufactured.
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So??? Over half of everything that is used in this country is Chinese made.
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Nan, does that include the Communist propaganda that people are indoctrinated into believing at colleges and universities?
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Btw, in case you think I’m making it up that your people are committing most of the violence in recent years:https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/2021/domestic-terrorism-data/ You probably will say the numbers are lies because it’s the Bezos Washington Post. Oh well
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Brookingslib, even if I owned any guns, I would only use them for target shooting or home defense.
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https://twitter.com/TheProblem/status/1631610370887491584 This might be one of the best takedowns of a 2nd Amendment purist(like yourself).
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Brookingslib, even if he cleans it up, Elon Musk won’t entice me to be part of Twitter. I was at one point, however, the bullshit on it made it not worth my time.
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Rag … the fact that Jeff shared the video has NOTHING to do with Elon Musk or whether you (or anyone else) uses Twitter. It has to do strictly with core topic of this post.
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Thanks for pointing out that fact Nan. Yes, Stewart has a new show, The Problem With John Stewart. It’s merely an excerpt from that show. The question is, will Ragnar watch it?
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Brookingslib, I watch a lot of things from all sides without preconceived bias.
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No reaction to the Fox lawsuit? I didn’t think so. This is why we have the major divide in this country. People watch Fox because it tells them what they WANT to hear. Not what they do not. So be it.
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Brookingslib, I suggested the idea of an exchange where I would like to see a conversation on political matters between David Pakman and Mark Levin in a public forum. If they could talk without shouting at each other, maybe that could be a good exchange.
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Maybe
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Brookingslib, in a neutral setting where the conversation was casual and not overly confrontational, I would not object to a dialogue between them.
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Nan, no dispute there. I just found it to be as much a b.s. source as Facebook is and I am not on Facebook either.
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Nan, this fact is not lost on me. I was just speaking commenting in a more generalized context.
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Nan, this fact is not lost on me. I was just commenting in a more generalized context. Twitter is as corrupt under Elon Musk as it was under Jack Dorsey.
Brookingslib, if you want a non-lethal method for home and personal defense, try the tactics of Kevin McCalister in the Home Alone movies.
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